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Annewiggy
Tamworth
151 of 241  Mon 24th Jun 2019 12:55pm  

In a post on the subject of the New House in Keresley I made a throwaway comment about it possibly being a source for the stone arbour. Doing a little Google research I have found it a little more interesting that some of the names we have come across associated with LPY are also associated with the area around New House. Christopher Hales, Duke of Montague and also Samuel Hill of Shenstone. There is also a Smith mentioned as living in New House. The original stone-built New House in Keresley was demolished in 1778 and a brick building replaced it. There is also mention of the only thing left being the entrance with pillars and stone balls. The arbour is shown with two stone balls in front of it. Do you think it is possible that the arbour could have been moved at some point from New House to LPY?
Buildings - Little Palace Yard
Helen F
Warrington
152 of 241  Mon 24th Jun 2019 2:42pm  

LPY had stone balls in several places like on top of the architrave in the central courtyard. See the image below. Forum library image I'm sure that stuff moved to new locations if it was still in good condition.
Buildings - Little Palace Yard
NeilsYard
Coventry
153 of 241  Mon 24th Jun 2019 3:05pm  

I've always thought those arbour balls were oddly sited - note the strange banding around them and also circle marking on the arbour side.
Buildings - Little Palace Yard
scrutiny
154 of 241  Mon 24th Jun 2019 3:18pm  
Off-topic / chat  

NeilsYard
Coventry
155 of 241  Mon 24th Jun 2019 4:41pm  

I'm still a bit confused about the arbour location in the garden considering those pictures and the industrial buildings behind them. On the 1888 map I posted a while ago the visible chimney does tie up with what appears as a timberyard a little further south of where we think the arbour was, however there are no buildings showing behind it on that, unlike the photos? The later maps I have up to 1914ish are not detailed enough to distinguish. My next map jumps to 1937 - the premises behind by then is showing as the Charlesworth Motor Body Works. The Memorial Park only opened in 1921 so it would have been after then it could have moved to the park - unless anyone any clearer maps showing Court 20 from between those dates? I know we mentioned Whitefriars entrance as a possible link but the style just does not match the era for that to be. A relocation from somewhere else (it was much moved then!) seems the more obvious. If only the photographer had turned around, or we find some others missing from this 'shoot' that Rob has.
Buildings - Little Palace Yard
Helen F
Warrington
156 of 241  Mon 24th Jun 2019 4:55pm  

This is a rough copy of the garden design in 1850. The wall features are black oblongs. The arbour is the black block at the very end of the garden, to the right. I think the order of the animals was top left - bear, top right - tiger, bottom right - elephant, bottom left - rhino. For my reasoning see comment 95 in this thread. added - The picture you show above is the bit of wall the tiger sat on.
Buildings - Little Palace Yard
NeilsYard
Coventry
157 of 241  Mon 24th Jun 2019 5:03pm  

Yes, I saw that Helen, thanks but puzzled by the buildings behind in the image I posted. Anyone got a decent early 1920's map with that spot on?
Buildings - Little Palace Yard
Helen F
Warrington
158 of 241  Mon 24th Jun 2019 5:13pm  

The buildings at the back are pre war but the one on the left is post war. Look at the 1950-1951 map on Old Maps. Position - zoom out three times
Buildings - Little Palace Yard
Kaga simpson
Peacehaven, East Sussex
159 of 241  Mon 24th Jun 2019 7:53pm  

I have only just found this thread. Surely the animals were replicas of the animals inside the buildings. The circus that used to tour Coventry, the lion tamer retired, lived in LPY and kept a number of circus animals in his back garden, which he showed to his friends - this was back in the early 1800's, his name was Checkitts.
Buildings - Little Palace Yard
NeilsYard
Coventry
160 of 241  Tue 25th Jun 2019 9:32am  

The arbour was destroyed during the war in the park so it can't have been pictured next to a post-war building, can it? And wow, Kaga - do tell more. I had not heard about Checkitts or of any circus!
Buildings - Little Palace Yard
Helen F
Warrington
161 of 241  Tue 25th Jun 2019 10:13am  

The photo of the curving features in the wall isn't the arbour wall, it was where the tiger was sat. Originally the wall was possibly lower and only the areas of the animal features curved up to a plinth. At some point the rest of the wall might have been built up to a level, leaving the curved wall tops buried in the wall. Or maybe it was always like that but it introduced a weakness into the structure. I compared the newer photo with the older version to determine that they were the same location, just different dates. That's why I know that the tiger was at that part of the garden. The arbour location was to the right of the photo though it had been removed by then. It's shown in a lot of the older maps. The sites beyond the garden walls were developed bit by bit. That activity included demolition, damage and decay of the original garden wall. The rhino was the first to be displaced (it was photographed on the ground) because I think that the wall crumbled around a gateway into the garden to the south, a feature visible on the Board of Health map. Then a factory was built to the south and either it was flush against the garden wall or they demolished the wall and the building wall acted as the boundary. The west end of the north wall had some kind of a lean to building - hence the photo with the bear showing a bit of roof. The lean to was demolished but the wall remained. Britain from above seems to show that part of the wall missing. Either it fell down or was taken down for either safety or access. The lean to might have been what was holding the wall upright. The mortar looks like it is eroded in the photos. I have wondered if the wall might have been rendered originally, which might have explained why the curving features were buried in the wall. The Georgians liked clean lines.
Buildings - Little Palace Yard
Kaga simpson
Peacehaven, East Sussex
162 of 241  Tue 25th Jun 2019 10:27am  

Coventry people always thought it would be a very large fair if "Wombwell's Menagerie" were coming, generally for 8 days at a time. He had 10 caravans drawn by 20 horses - even by modern times it was huge. A nephew was pinned by an elephant and died. His cousin was at one time the lion tamer, was torn by a tiger and died - both buried in the Wombwell grave in Coventry. About 1850ish, G Checketts, the lion keeper retired. He owned a number of animals including two lions, he had enough money to buy a wine vault and build a menagie in LPY. On opening day there was a poem handed to him that was supposed come from "Nero", his fav lion. In those days tradesmen had a statue or something to pin-point their business - would imagine he had small statues of his animals above each pen.
Buildings - Little Palace Yard
Rob Orland
Historic Coventry
163 of 241  Tue 25th Jun 2019 10:29am  

On 24th Jun 2019 3:05pm, NeilsYard said: I've always thought those arbour balls were oddly sited - note the strange banding around them.
The banding around those balls was from their original use as Trebuchet balls - a Trebuchet being a huge catapult, usually used in seige warfare, and possibly used locally as late as the Wars of the Roses. (I know someone with such a ball as a "feature" in their back garden - I'll ask if I can take a photo next time I'm round there!)
Buildings - Little Palace Yard
NeilsYard
Coventry
164 of 241  Tue 25th Jun 2019 10:49am  

I hadn't considered a Trebuchet Rob - nice one. Have you seen the working one at Warwick Castle? Did not realise you meant Wombwell either, Kaga. Derek has shown me their grave at LRC - it's here on Derek's great website. Had no idea Checkitt was at LPY.
Buildings - Little Palace Yard
Helen F
Warrington
165 of 241  Tue 25th Jun 2019 11:07am  

As I've written before, the 5 animals were probably Asian/Indian versions, not African. Possibly ordered while on a grand tour. Were Checkitt/Wombwell's animals Indian versions? The tiger is the key animal because there are no African tigers. Bears were very rare and now extinct there. The rhino and elephant have features that point to India. The lion looks somewhat medieval in design and was either original or an attempt to copy European sculpture.
Buildings - Little Palace Yard

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